Criminal Defense

[GRAPHIC: Michael K. Allen Defense Attorney Former Police Officer, Judge, Hamilton County Prosecutor (513) 321-5297 www.mkallenlaw.com]
[GRAPHIC: Mike Allen appearance on Greta Van Susteren (CNN)]
GRETA VAN SUSTEREN: So what did happen in that Cincinnati alley? Well one man sorting out the details is Hamilton County Prosecutor and former police officer Michael Allen and he joins us.
[GRAPHIC: The point Greta Van Susteren CNN]
GRETA VAN SUSTEREN: Michael, what, what do you intend to do in this case as the prosecutor?
MICHAEL ALLEN: Well Greta, we're in the process of preparing the case for grand jury. The Cincinnati Police Division has turned over the evidence that they've gathered so far. We received the report from the coroner today and we're preparing to present the case to the grand jury. And the grand jury will decide what, if any, criminal charges are appropriate.
GRETA VAN SUSTEREN: Does the coroner's report indicate how far apart that Police Officer Steve Roach was from Timothy Thomas when he, when he shot him?
MICHAEL ALLEN: Unfortunately, Greta, because the case is before the grand jury, I can't comment upon that. But we did receive the coroner's report today that deals with cause of death and manner of death. And again, we feel that we'll be able to take this case to the grand jury pretty soon.
GRETA VAN SUSTEREN: And in reviewing it preliminarily, and I realize it's just preliminary and I realize it's the grand jury that will make the ultimate decision in charging, but prosecutors do play a role in advising the grand jury. As you look at it now, what kind of charges do you think you will be asking the grand jury to take a look at?
MICHAEL ALLEN: Again, I don't mean to dodge the question, but we are permitted in grand jury to instruct as to the law. We'll instruct the grand jurors as to what we feel the appropriate charges may be, but the investigation isn't complete yet, and it would inappropriate for me to speculate. But again, we are permitted to instruct as to the law and we'll do that at the appropriate time.
GRETA VAN SUSTEREN: What piece of evidence in this case has caught your attention as being the most significant?
MICHAEL ALLEN: There are statements of police officers, statements of the officer involved in the shooting. The video, as you've already talked about, is somewhat helpful, although it's grainy and of poor quality. The video is valuable in that you actually hear things instead of seeing things. The coroner's report is something that, that will be helpful in grand jury. And those are the materials that we'll use, that along with witness testimony.
GRETA VAN SUSTEREN: Michael, you're a very unusual prosecutor in that you bring to the job another experience as being a police officer. How to you look at that when you're both a prosecutor and former police officer? What, what's different about this case for you?
MICHAEL ALLEN: It's tough. I mean, anytime you prosecute a police officer, whether you're a former police officer or not, it's tough for a prosecutor because we do work with them. But in the two and a half years that I've been the prosecutor of Hamilton County, unfortunately, we've had occasion to prosecute numerous police officers. We have police officers now who are under indictment for involuntary manslaughter and assault in the death of a young man.
And I'm not bragging about that and I'm not happy about that. That's just the way it is. You do your job. You take your cases and your defendants as you find them. And if the evidence warrants, you present the case. If the grand jury indicts, you prosecute.
GRETA VAN SUSTEREN: Does Cincinnati have a bigger problem do you think, or a particularly big problem with police officers? Or is it the--sort of the unrest that we've seen in the last few days that it's just cast a spotlight on it?
MICHAEL ALLEN: We don't have a bigger problem than any other city. And one thing that angers me is this--what you've been hearing the last few days about 15 African American men murdered at the hands of Cincinnati police officers. That's not true. That's not accurate. That should stop. And with all due respect, you in the media should call people on that.
In ten of those murders, in ten of those cases I should say, guns were pulled on Cincinnati police officers. Cincinnati police officers were shot at.
Just a few weeks ago we had a situation where a Cincinnati police officer, coming out of a convenience store, saw a 12-year-old in a car, obviously investigated his age, reached into the car to try to turn the key off. The young man sped away. The officer shot the individual, the young man, he died. But the, the officer also died as well. He had his head split open by a car that he was being drug by.
So it's not a case where Cincinnati police officers are trigger happy. And 15 young men have not died at the hands of Cincinnati police offices unjustifiably, so--
GRETA VAN SUSTEREN: And of course, there--isn't there an officer--well a situation in Cincinnati where a woman police officer was dragged into a car I think, and there was another incident which is included in that 15 which suggests something very different than what might be reported. Is that right?
MICHAEL ALLEN: Officer Katie Conway, who was frankly a hero just a few years ago, was--had someone in her police cruiser who was shooting at her. Thankfully, she was able to shoot that individual and she survived. She's no longer a police officer but she's still with us. And again, that's a case that's cited by these people who are saying that Cincinnati police officers are trigger happy. They're not. I think as a whole--
GRETA VAN SUSTEREN: All right--
MICHAEL ALLEN: --they're very responsible. When we have a bad one, we prosecute them.
GRETA VAN SUSTEREN: All right, thank you Michael Allen, who is the Hamilton County prosecutor, for joining us this evening.
[GRAPHIC: Mike Allen on WXIX-TV following David Carroll verdict]
ANCHOR: That murder charge, 15 years to life, for the gross abuse of a corpse, one year. How long could he spend behind bars?
MICHAEL ALLEN: Oh, he could spend any number of years behind bars. I mean it's a 15 year to life sentence. And, you know, in some cases life truly does mean life. It's going to be up to the parole board.
But again, I, I have to point out in a case like this, I know what will happen. When he's eligible for parole, his first eligibility in 16 years, this community will respond.
Whoever is the prosecutor in Claremont County at the time will ask the community to respond to the parole board. The community will put pressure on the parole board. The parole board will deny that parole. And at every point that he becomes eligible after that, I'm certain that'll happen. He's going to be locked up for many, many, many years and may never leave prison.
ANCHOR: Let's go back to what the prosecutor said. Why would the prosecutor come to David Carroll's defense in terms of saying, you know, he's the one who had second thoughts about leaving Marcus in that closet. He's the one who thought it was a bad idea and we got to get up early and we got to get back to make sure Marcus is okay. Why would the prosecutor say that to the judge?
MICHAEL ALLEN: Two reasons. Prosecutors have an obligation to do justice and prosecutors have an obligation to bring forward favorable evidence when it's appropriate and when it's warranted, number one. That's number one.
Number two, I'm sure that's something that was worked out between the prosecutors and Kathy Adams in advance. I'm sure Kathy Adams wanted that as part of the deal that that statement would be made and it's a legitimate statement to make. And it sounds like Mr. Brier felt that that was appropriate and warranted.
FEMALE VOICE: All right, well let's talk about Amy Baker. Of course, we're never really going to know who did what because there were only those three people, but is justice served by her being able to walk free?
MICHAEL ALLEN: I think so. And again, and I've said this from the beginning and I'll continue to say it. I think the state had to do what they had to do in that case. Sometimes you have to pick someone to give immunity to and in this case it was Amy Baker. Do people have heartburn about it? Sure they do. Does Don White have heartburn about it? I'm sure he does. But I think it was the right choice to do that for the prosecution.
[GRAPHIC: Mike Allen on The O'Reilly Factor]
BILL O'REILLY: Joining us now from Cincinnati is Hamilton County, Ohio prosecutor Michael Allen who is investigating sex abuse allegations within the Cincinnati Archdiocese, and from Seattle, former federal prosecutor and Fox News legal analyst, Lis Wiehl. All right, Counselor Allen let's start with you. Has there been a change in the Catholic Church's cooperation with you?
MICHAEL ALLEN: You bet, Bill. We just a few weeks ago sent them a letter asking them to turn over certain records of abuse that happened involving children and priests within the Archdiocese. Initially, they didn't want to comply I don't think, but they then finally said give us a grand jury subpoena, we'll turn it over. We were more than happy to do that. They've turned over more than five boxes of materials and we're in the process of going through that material now.
BILL O'REILLY: Now, when you say they weren't--initially they didn't want to cooperate, what does that mean? The bishop told you to take a hike, or what does that mean?
MICHAEL ALLEN: Well, we gave them five days to comply. They waited for the fifth day to comply. So I guess in essence they did, but it took a grand jury subpoena to do it. As I said, we were more than happy to do that because that's in effect a court order to turn the material over. And they have turned over five boxes to us so far.
BILL O'REILLY: All right. Now, why didn't you do this five years ago?
MICHAEL ALLEN: Well, it's interesting how it happened here in Cincinnati, Bill. The Archdiocese--the Archbishop had a press conference on a Thursday afternoon admitting that there were members of the Archdiocese that were involved in sexual abuse. That very next day, that Friday, my office was flooded with faxes, phone calls, emails from people, most of whom identified themselves as Catholic--it's a very Catholic community here--saying Mr. Prosecutor, you need to get to the bottom of it.
BILL O'REILLY: Yeah, but you, you'd heard--
MICHAEL ALLEN: That Monday--
BILL O'REILLY: --you heard rumors of that in the past, right? I mean, what I'm saying to you is yeah, now that the genie is out of the bottle and everybody is going crazy, all the prosecutors like you are real aggressive, but where were you five years ago? Because you knew there were civil suits in Cincinnati and almost every Diocese across the country.
MICHAEL ALLEN: We, we had no allegations.
BILL O'REILLY: Where was the aggressive investigation?
MICHAEL ALLEN: We had no allegations whatsoever, Bill--
BILL O'REILLY: None?
MICHAEL ALLEN: --in two and half years that I was prosecutor.
BILL O'REILLY: You had none, not one?
MICHAEL ALLEN: I'll tell you what, in, in this--no, not one.
BILL O'REILLY: Really? That's amazing.
MICHAEL ALLEN: In this jurisdiction, in this jurisdiction in Cincinnati if we receive evidence that a child has been abused by a priest or anyone, we investigate.
BILL O'REILLY: All right.
MICHAEL ALLEN: Now has law enforcement in general been slow over the last 20 or so years, yeah, you're probably right about it.
BILL O'REILLY: Yeah, they, they have. And I want Mr. Allen to address this. Once you get this witch-hunt mentality. And I want to put it into perspective. There are 46,000 Catholic priests in America. And a study done out of Dallas less than--a little more than 2,000 of those have been accused. And out of that, only 80, only 80 have gone to jail. So it does seem that it's either no evidence, as Lis said, or a hesitation to me, Mr. Allen.
MICHAEL ALLEN: There's no hesitation at all. I didn't hear Lis' response to your question, Bill. But I'll tell you something, from the political point of view, in Cincinnati here, the response has been overwhelmingly supportive to what we've done. I've got two negative responses so far. That's it. So I'm not concerned about politics. I'm going to do my job and do the right thing.
BILL O'REILLY: All the polls say the same thing. Right. All--now that they--but see now it's easy because now all the allegations are out. But the danger, and this is the last thing I'm going to ask you, the danger is that there might be a witch hunt now. That unstable people, people with an ax to grind against the church, they level these charges that aren't true. You got to watch that, right?
MICHAEL ALLEN: Absolutely. In my case, and I think in the case of a lot of other prosecutors, I'm Roman Catholic. I'm not going to overreact, but I am going to do my job. Our Archbishop here stood up and said we have evidence and we have information that these abuses took place. My office immediately acted and subpoenaed those records and we got them. We're going to look at them and if there is an offense, our grand jury will act.
BILL O'REILLY: All right. And at Catholic Church no longer in New York and everywhere else they're giving all the cooperation they can now, but they should have done it 20 years ago. Lis, Mr. Allen, thanks. We--
[GRAPHIC: Mike Allen on WXIX-TV following the Liz Carroll verdict]
ANCHOR: Our legal analyst Mike Allen joins me this morning to give us some perspective of everything that's been going on. And of all of the counts, were there any that you were surprised that she got a conviction on?
MICHAEL ALLEN: No. This was a case that the prosecutor structured so that if there was a conviction on one, in all likelihood there would be convictions on other. Their theory of the case was so tight and their legal strategy in charging and indicting was so sound that if she was going to get convicted on one, she'd probably get convicted on all of them.
ANCHOR: You know this is a, a case that has charged throughout the entire tri-state. You've covered a lot of cases. You've prosecuted a lot of cases, a lot of murder cases. Why this particular case do you think has galvanized the entire community?
MICHAEL ALLEN: I think the main reason because it was a little boy, a very cute little boy who lost his life.
[GRAPHIC: Marcus]
MICHAEL ALLEN: There was this week's long search for him, the charade that the Carroll's put the public through. I think that gripped the public attention. And it just went from there.
[GRAPHIC: Marcus in car seat]
MICHAEL ALLEN: But anytime you have the murder of a child, I think the public is going to be interested.
ANCHOR: And surprised, five and a half hours, not very long.
[GRAPHIC: Marcus by fence]
MICHAEL ALLEN: You know I'm not surprised at the ultimate verdict. I am surprised at how shortly the verdict came, how quickly they came to that decision. But the state had a strong case and they laid it out very well. And the jurors didn't have too much trouble convicting her.
ANCHOR: Tell me a little bit about Judge Robert Ringland. What do you know about him?
MICHAEL ALLEN: I'll tell you, if you had to go to central casting to get a trial judge for this case you wouldn't do better than Bob Ringland. He's a legal scholar. He's running for the Court of Appeals, which is a court that deals in legal issues instead of trail issues. I'm not in a position to endorse him, but he, he is so good at that. He is the most published trial judge in the state of Ohio with respect to writing out opinions. He runs a tight courtroom, as anyone can see that has watched this trial. It just doesn't get any better than him.
ANCHOR: The thing that we've missed I think a little bit in, in some of this coverage, remember Liz Carroll has children. They're in foster care right now. What happens with that?
MICHAEL ALLEN: Well, the foster car will continue. I was speaking in the courtroom with one of the attorneys that's involved in the foster care proceedings and they're ongoing and they probably will be ongoing for quite a while. When you think about it, Liz Carroll's going to be in no position to provide any, any mothering or nurturing, nor is David in all likelihood. And ultimately, I would think that those children hopefully will end up in a permanent placement somewhere down the line.
ANCHOR: You know, in the days where we have 24 hour cable coverage, we have breaking--live breaking, cutting in news information, as a defense attorney, how can you get a fair trial for any client in a emotionally charged case like this?
MICHAEL ALLEN: That's a really good question. And Kathy Adams, the attorney for David, already is saying she's going to file for a change of venue. But change of venues are really rare. If you watch the jury selection, the judge will ask those jurors, have you seen coverage. I think every one of them said yes.
But the important question and the question the judge will ask each and every one of those jurors is can you put that aside, can you disregard that and render your verdict based upon what you hear from the witness stand? And if those jurors answer yes and it's convincing, they are then competent jurors.
ANCHOR: Let's go to that question by Greg Cohen. He says everyone was expecting me to pound Amy Baker. Yes, we were and he didn't. And so the follow-up question would be, if you're not, why put everyone through this kind of trial? Why not just plead?
MICHAEL ALLEN: Well I don't know what plea bargain was offered to them so I don't know what, what the state was offering. But Greg Cohen made the strategic decision to go to trail. With respect to the cross examination of Amy Baker, he was able to pull out three or four pretty big inconsistencies. And I think the criticism comes in that it appeared to some that it was not an aggressive cross examination. It could have been more aggressive, but different lawyers have different styles. And he did elicit those contradictions.
And again, keep in mind, again, just based on what I had heard from one juror is that maybe her testimony wasn't that important. What was important as the grand jury statement and admissions from Liz Carroll. So I think to criticize defense counsel for not being aggressive enough in cross examination, I don't know that that's legitimate.
[GRAPHIC: Michael K. Allen Defense Attorney Former Police Officer, Judge, Hamilton County Prosecutor (513) 321-5297 www.mkallenlaw.com]

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